amielleon | The case for Henry/Sully

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The case for Henry/Sully

I've seen some of you guys (

rosage, I think?) wtf over the Henry/Sully supports, and as far as pairings go, I don't like it for either of them. But I was thinking about it, and there *is* something pretty unique about this pairing as far as it concerns Henry.

Henry's potential wives can be lumped into a few sometimes-overlapping categories: women won over by maternal urges to take care of him (Olivia, Panne, Cherche), women won over by his sticky-sweet devotion (Liz, Cherche, Tharja, Cordelia), and women who you could've sworn were just friends (at best) until halfway into S support (Avatar, Maribelle, Nowi, Miriel, Sully).

The marriages in the last category suddenly take the theme of their supports into romantic territory. So for Nowi and Miriel, suddenly they turn to baby making to solve their problems. The Avatar decides she likes quirky men and Henry promises to be her slave or something. Maribelle decides she's quite bothered by the way Henry flippantly talks about going and dying and this obviously means she's got a girlboner.

Sully/Henry? Sully/Henry was about willpower and pride. Sully proposes to him out of intense *respect*.

(As a brief aside, respect and lack thereof are critical elements in a marriage. Paul Eckman's research shows that contempt was the best predictor of a doomed marriage. I'm not at all surprised that Cordelia ended up running off and leaving Henry to raise Severa [who totally became daddy's little girl per the doomed future dlc] -- I mean she married him saying condescending shit like "Your strengths are different from Chrom's" [ヘンリー…あなたのよさはクロム様とは違うところにあるわ。] and that allegedly she liked him for who he was... without giving any examples of things she likes about him. Total bald-faced lie there.)

Anyway, I think it's remarkable that Sully sees in him something that no one else in the army overtly appreciates. Henry does have a lot of willpower, and that means something beyond his resultant abilities in hexes/magic (as is the true reason Ricken and Tharja look up to him). Not only does he make it through an incredibly adversarial childhood (perhaps even being one of few survivors of some crazy shit), he comes out the other end apparently aware enough of his shortcomings and so determined to break the cycle that he becomes a canonically good father.

Sully doesn't know any of that, but as a woman in the military she's no stranger to adversary and I think that if and when she did learn about any of it, she'd have tremendous appreciation for what Henry's managed to do.

I honestly think it would be more meaningful than the matronly wives' reactions of "poor sad bby i want to make you happy <3" (as much as it tickles me feelings-wise).

I don't know, maybe I'm talking in circles at this point. But I feel like Sully honestly recognizes and values Henry for his strengths, which is a very affirming thing.

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This is a good write-up! I had to look at their supports again to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure what made me 'wtf' was the whole 'lol I almost killed you! :D' thing in the B support played for laughs, which is just...not my thing (and I have no idea how much of this is E!Henry or not), but I do remember liking their mutual appreciation for each other's strengths. If that's unusual among Henry supports, then that is special. Also now that I've seen their S support it's kind of badass that she's the one proposing (and Henry's remark about the ring amused me). I think I'd prefer them as friends, overall, but yeah.

Ah, no, the death curse was in the Japanese too. That's just... Henry for you, always managing to be somehow grossly inappropriate.

Sully proposes in a lot of her support chains. Sully is badass.

I'm not at all surprised that Cordelia ended up running off and leaving Henry to raise Severa

Wasn't surprised either when I read that on the tumblr. That marriage has "doomed" written all over it.

This is neat; I mean, there are options I enjoy better for both Henry and Sully but this is still pretty cool.

This is neat; I mean, there are options I enjoy better for both Henry and Sully but this is still pretty cool.

That's basically how I feel about it. The dynamic as presented in the game just doesn't have enough impact to it to make me actively ship it, but it's a headcanon dark horse I may unleash on something someday.

heh, Henry is who Sully paired in my current Hardmode file because I found it so interesting! (especially compared to remaining options of Fred, Libra, and Ricken which were all boring, bleh or WAT ). Respect is usually a strong key I look for when pairing up characters (and one of the reasons I find myself not really liking Cherche and Virion's supports--which is sad, I wanted to like them BUT I DIGRESS) because a relationship that's short on respect is prone to be short in general much as you've mentioned, and I found it interesting how Sully talked to him.

I though it was also interesting how she said his cheery confidence appealed to her. ~~collects tidbits about characters and who/what they like to build a more round grasp of them and also who matches best for shipping~~

In the long run, I don't think they really work romantically. But I liked reading their supports a lot. (What does Henry say to Kjelle in the DLC, I wonder! if you're up for it, anyway) They make for an interesting dynamic.

(Though I have to admit, telling him 'curse me' without any sort of limitations was kind of a dumb move on her part, I wasn't terribly surprised at the results in their B conversation :'D )

Edited 2013-03-26 22:38 (UTC)

Oh, if you're interested in those kinds of tidbits, I should mention that Henry consistently hits on silver-haired mysterious mage girls (ie, Diadora and Micaiah) of questionable bloodline. Hilariously, the only one fitting that description in FE13 is... F!Avatar.

I liked Cherche/Virion myself. I feel like she sasses him so much because she can and he gets it and doesn't take it personally. It's a true sign of closeness when you can make depreciating jokes about each other. I think the extent of her dedication is proof enough that deep down she holds him in high esteem.

And yeah Henry/Sully is not a very romantic relationship. :P

Henry and Kjelle in the doomed future DLC is a very short conversation in which Kjelle remarks that her true father had apparently calmed down a little over the years, probably under Sully's influence. And also she's happy to see him, and apparently they all stressed the importance of family. (This was brought on when, in his usual self-depreciating way, Henry says something like, oh yeah considering that you turned out so well I must've changed.)

(Though I have to admit, telling him 'curse me' without any sort of limitations was kind of a dumb move on her part, I wasn't terribly surprised at the results in their B conversation :'D )

I guess no one warned her about Henry. :P To be fair, I think it's usually a fair human assumption that your ally isn't going to take your request as consent to do a lethal one.

I liked Cherche/Virion myself. I feel like she sasses him so much because she can and he gets it and doesn't take it personally. It's a true sign of closeness when you can make depreciating jokes about each other. I think the extent of her dedication is proof enough that deep down she holds him in high esteem

Yeah, this sums up what I like about them. The respect is there, it's just expressed through something other than forthright sincerity.

Haha! That's really interesting!

I think Virion has 'a thing' for redheads, since he most openly flirts with Cherche, Cordy, and Sully; he doesn't with Miriel, but frankly she's kind of terrifying and also her hair is darker than the others

[IN WHICH I RAMBLE WAY TOO MUCH--and also fail to properly enunciate the things I try to explain]

I saw a lot more of her shutting him down than friendly-ish sass (it's understandable given his..err, 'boisterous' personality, but not something I think works well long-standing relationship wise). It /is/ a sign of closeness to make depreciating jokes at each other, but /he/ doesn't really make those of her, so a lot of them sounded more like remarks at his expense. Like... when he tells her to think only for herself and not him if things came down to it, she agrees and then just shuts him down with a smile when he's all 'well, you could think of me a /little/.' Conversely when he explains his reasons for not dueling to Sully and offers she can believe him or not, \she says 'I don't believe you,' but follows up with it by saying she was teasing rather than leaving him to stew on a negative reply. Granted, they have their own other frictions, but at the very least I felt she was 'warmer' to him than Cherche.

I think the biggest turnoff for me, though, was their S in which her acceptance is basically one of 'Well, no one would take you anyway so I guess I will' (which felt like an acceptance of duty rather than love) and any of her supports which end in her threatening to feed the fiancé to her wyvern feels like a lack of trust to me (on top of what I consider 'a sitcom threat'). It's clear that he adores her, but I never got the return feeling. I just got acerbic reads.

But that's me. My opinions may change as I review the supports again, but so far...eh? I think she /did/ like him at one point, but ultimately decided to shut him out to save herself the heartache (knowing his charming character and the way she implies he flirted with the REST of his female staff), which of course is problematic since he did ultimately like her for genuine. She still obviously respects him and the things he does for his country, but romantic dead-end.

tl.dr; She knows him well, and respects him, but it feels like she built herself a wall.

(please feel free to offer your own reads/explanations, I am always happy to hear c: )

[/IN WHICH I RAMBLE WAY TOO MUCH]

Re: Henry and Kjelle

Hmm. Interesting. Sad that it's short, but hmm. (possibly a reflection of the less-romantic feel we have for them in general |D)

I guess no one warned her about Henry. :P To be fair, I think it's usually a fair human assumption that your ally isn't going to take your request as consent to do a lethal one.

This IS true. xD Henry just isn't your normal box of animal crackers.

Edited 2013-03-26 23:05 (UTC)

Until they actually get married, Virion is Cherche's social superior (or at least, this is how she treats him). As such, anything bad she says about him is in a markedly different light from if he were to say something bad about her. When the inferior says mean things about the superior, there's a layer of "surely you do not mean that, considering that superior has in the palm of their hand" whereas the inverse just looks like abuse of power.

Sully isn't so close to Virion. They just met near the beginning of the game. They can't get away with harsh jokes and be totally sure that the other person gets that they don't actually feel negatively. I think it's clear Virion does understand Cherche, considering that he keeps repeating himself despite her apparent insistence that she is not joking.

Also I really don't think a dutiful acceptance is "well, I am the only one who could possibly love you." A dutiful acceptance looks more like, idk, Seth/Eirika or Lyn/Kent or something, with "oh yes I've come to realize that duty means not ignoring your heart too *handkiss*." Cherche's chiding acceptance of Virion strikes me as something quite different from that.

I think that deep down Cherche likes being something of a dom (in the BDSM sense) and Virion gets and caters to that. Putting him down is how she expresses her ~~raging lust~~ affection.

[Until they actually get married, Virion is Cherche's social superior (or at least, this is how she treats him). As such, anything bad she says about him is in a markedly different light from if he were to say something bad about her. ]

Quite true.

[When the inferior says mean things about the superior, there's a layer of "surely you do not mean that, considering that superior has in the palm of their hand" whereas the inverse just looks like abuse of power.]

Also true. But then, just as when he speaks with ladies that are not his vassals, he is quick to apologize when she snaps at him.

Cherche: I am aware of that. But I never served you because of your land holdings.

Virion: You didn't? Oh ho ho! Then was it, perchance, for love?

Cherche: One more comment like that and I'll have Minerva eat you.

Virion: *gulp* My deepest apologies, milady! My lips are hereby sealed!

Maybe it reads better in the original script, but one shouldn't really have to be scared of a threat if she doesn't mean it.

[Sully isn't so close to Virion. They just met near the beginning of the game. They can't get away with harsh jokes and be totally sure that the other person gets that they don't actually feel negatively.]

Also true. Length of relationship is comparatively shorter. But I also felt Virion responded a bit better to her, and as a result of her nicer responses bounced back much faster, while his supports with Cherche tended to cut off at the end of her quips, lending to the shut-down feel. They are, of course, completely different people in their own rights.

[I think it's clear Virion does understand Cherche, considering that he keeps repeating himself despite her apparent insistence that she is not joking.]

He does the same with Cordy too, though, through all her active denials. (which culminates in their S too when she finally accepts him). It comes across as wheedling them down, almost. I do agree that he's definitely good at reading people (which is also apparent in his explanations to Miriel in their A, among other less blatant conversations)--and probably Cherche to a better extent than most via extensive proximity--but she phrases it well when she says they've known each other too long, at least on her part based on how she keeps bringing up his interactions with the maids.

[Also I really don't think a dutiful acceptance is "well, I am the only one who could possibly love you." A dutiful acceptance looks more like, idk, Seth/Eirika or Lyn/Kent or something, with "oh yes I've come to realize that duty means not ignoring your heart too *handkiss*." Cherche's chiding acceptance of Virion strikes me as something quite different from that.]

HAHA. Okay, yes, those are better examples of the 'dutyyyyyyyy' kind of acceptance. But it still felt..... less affectionate than Virion really seems to be reaching for [in any of his relationships], and also like she likes Minerva more than him--which is not the most solid foundation for a relationship.

[I think that deep down Cherche likes being something of a dom (in the BDSM sense) and Virion gets and caters to that. Putting him down is how she expresses her ~~raging lust~~ affection.]

Entirely possible, and I do see him perfectly happy accepting a more domestic role. But I don't really see a happy or loving response to her acerbic put-downs or love behind them. /headscratch.

I do think their interactions from a character point of view are very interesting. But not as a romantic one. ):

Edited 2013-03-27 00:09 (UTC)

Hmm, it's possible the tone is a little different as a result of the localization's interpretation. For instance, that italicized Virion line was,

うむ、私が悪かった。 Yeah, I'm sorry.
命だけは助けてくれたまえ。 Do please spare my life.

Maybe with his facial expression it's clearly one way or the other but ehh. Just looking at the text, I never really see Virion sound like's honestly intimidated.

I think the supports end with the quips because, related to what Mark said, that's sort of a unifying thing in their supports. This whole ritual is in part acted for them, and it's a Thing They Do.

As far as Minerva's concerned, I think Cherche may show more affection toward Minerva than any of her potential suitors. :P I don't know if that's a point against her relationship, so much as it depends on one's view toward animals. Cherche would certainly be of the mind that her bond with Minerva does not inherently mean less because Minerva's a wyvern. Bros before hos man.

That does read better in the direct translation, and as for faces hers is the angry frown whilst his is the 'sweating/concern' expression, which translates to me as as more genuine..intimidation? In just text I could see it more as a British comedy of words (comedies of the like I am exceptionally fond), but with the expressions he feels more trampled.

I'm warming to the idea of them as little more, though I'm guessing there's something I was exposed to somewhere before which is still subconsciously turning me off them. Something in their interactions that just doesn't 'feel right'.

Haha, bros before hos indeed. XD but it still feels cheap of her to default to using Minerva to address social disparities and unfair to her future spouse, thus a preference for proposals where she doesn't threaten to feed them to Minerva for disloyalty ( more than just Virion, she sauys it to Stahl one of the nicest most openly conciderate people in their entire army, among others, if it was just Virion i could more readily buy the threat as a playful banter'their thing'). It's also unfair to herself in a way for not allowing herself to trust them, and trust is incredibly important in any relationship, and if she felt she had to make such as statement ever in jest after such a proposal-whether with Virion or someone else--, there are issues.

Fwiw, Cherche/Henry/Minerva is totally a threesome.

Actually, it's really quite ironic how many of Henry's support options take him as totally nonthreatening, given that he's the most likely male suitor to kill someone on a whim.

Ahaha! I don't disagree there! Currently Henry is my favorite choice for her, but I need to get more of her supports to get as better read on her as a whole before I fully decide who compliments her best.

The nonthreatening reads on Henry are really interesting especially given that he is, as thou easy, the most likely to kill people on a whim.

Right? And Lissa totally falls asleep all over him after learning about the sacrifice of tiny birds.

Ahaha that sounds SAFE :'D

Lissa is strangely trusting of a lot of people she talks to.

But even that's a bit much given her breakdown with him beforehand over the birds

Edit: I'm on my tablet' sorry autocorrect is doofy

Edited 2013-03-27 01:35 (UTC)

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The case for Henry/Sully

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