![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
That Exclusive Ike Meta Post, Part 1
I was going to save this meta for expression in a fic. I really did. It was going to be my Ike/Soren magnum opus (there is not a single fic focused on the general dynamics of their relationship that I consider acceptable). But it looks like that might not get written anytime soon... again. It was nearly a year ago when I told myself I was going to write it again. The current draft is still at 0 words. Sigh.
Okay, so, this post: Why Ike Is Not All That Boring, Part 1
His manly charms come with manly consequences.
So often stories like to present us with men who are both exemplary specimens of machismo and also emotionally well-equipped. In reality, things like not letting yourself cry tend to hamper the healing process.
Ike
...A long time ago, my father told me a story... It was about the dead... He said the more tears we shed...the more blessings they receive in the hereafter... I envy you, Rhys. For some reason, I can't seem to cry at all... Rhys, if you could, shed a tear for me, too. I'd be grateful.
- PoR Ch 8 "Rhys"
It's not super-overt. I don't think it was one of the designers' goals to make a point about the downside of masculinity. Honestly, I'm glad that isn't the case -- it probably would've come off as heavy-handed. Instead we get little things.
Repression or not, time helps, and by Chapter 9 both the siblings are coming to terms with things.
Ike, perhaps, is a little less certain and needs his sister's help with things.
Mist
If I said I were, I'd be lying. But I'm doing my best. Yesterday, I was so confused. Then, I awoke this morning and saw the blue sky, felt the sun on my face... And I thought, I'm alive. The sunlight was so warm. I mean, it's always warm, but...for some reason, it made me want to cry.
Ike
Oh, Mist...
Mist
It's up to us. We must live the fullest lives we can. We have to live for Mother and for Father. We mustn't dishonor their memory. So...um... I may think about them, and I may cry every now and then, but I'll carry on!
Ike
You're right... Everything you said is right. We will carry on together.
- PoR Ch 9 "Mist"
Even Soren seems to feel the need to comfort him.
Soren
Hmm.
Ike
What is it? You've got that worried look again.
Soren
Well, um... It's nothing. Nevermind. ...Everyone's really slow aren't they? Shall I go and see what's taking them?
Ike
Soren... Don't worry about it.
Soren
Hm?
Ike
Sitting here in the morning, in the sunlight... It helps me to understand. I'm alive. I have trustworthy friends. That's how I know I can go on. I just hope I'm not...fooling myself.
Soren
No, you're not! You're not.
Ike
Well then, it's business as usual. I know we'll have troubles, but let us set our shoulders straight and get on with it.
Soren
Understood.
- PoR Ch 9 "Soren"
If there's anything Ike seems less than certain about, it's this: moving past his grief. And there is no doubt in my mind that at the time of Chapter 9, he has not handled it as well as Mist.
We learn in Radiant Dawn that Mist might not have handled it as well as it looks, but while it's shown here and elsewhere that the death of her parents is a lingering wound, she's more actively working past it. She talks to people about it. She thinks about it from multiple angles. She talks to Ike about it.
Ike... Ike keeps it to himself. And secretly seeks revenge.
(The extent of this varies with the player's actions. If Ike fights the BK on chapters 11 and 24, these conversations appear:
Black Knight:
We meet again, son of Greil.
Ike:
...
Black Knight:
Why do you challenge me? You
are not worthy of being my foe.
Flee while you are able.
Ike:
You...
[angry sprite]
You! Die! Die now!
Aaaaaaaarrrr!
Black Knight:
...Fool.
- PoR Ch 11 Ike fights the BK
Ike:
I've found you at last.
Black Knight:
Hmph. You see me, and instead
of fleeing, you come to face me.
Interesting...and foolish.
Ike:
I will keep challenging you until I have
avenged my father!
- PoR Ch 24 Ike fights the BK)
Ike comes off as considerably more level-headed if the player doesn't let that happen, though. But either way, he's had it on his mind.
Ike: I brought [Ragnell] back with me, and I've been holding it ever since. I wasn't thinking about using it. I believed that if I just carried the sword with me, I'd meet the Black Knight again. And it worked.
- PoR Ch 26 "Titania"
Ike has avenged his father by defeating the Black Knight in single combat. That night, he sleeps until well past dawn. It is the first time since Greil's death that he has done so.
- PoR Ch 28 Pre-Chapter (if Ike won against the BK)
And, well, maybe it's understandable.
Mist:
You're going to fight him, aren't you.
For Father.
Ike:
Yes, I am. That's one I won't
let anyone else do in my stead.
Mist:
Trying to stop you is pointless. I know.
If I were stronger, if I were a swordfighter,
I'd be doing the same thing.
- PoR Ch 27 Pre-Chapter
Maybe it wouldn't come off as repressive as it is, if it weren't for the fact that, one, he doesn't even tell anyone about it.
Ike:
That would be the final piece of the puzzle.
After all, the man who found my father
was the king's henchman.
Titania:
Ike! Are you saying you know
who killed Commander Greil?
You never said anything about that! We all
thought his murderer was unknown...
Why didn't you say anything?
Ike:
...I don't know. I never felt like
talking about it.
Titania:
He was a Daein soldier, wasn't he?
Who was it? Who was the man who
killed Commander Greil?
Ike:
...
Titania:
IKE!! TELL ME!!
Soren:
Can we discuss this later?
Titania:
...
...Oh... Yes... Yes. Of course.
- PoR Ch 22 Post-Chapter
Not until 20 chapters after it's happened -- nearly a year in game time.
Ike:
I feel I've done you a terrible disservice by not telling you earlier. It's just that... There was a lot I had to get clear in my own mind. I know I've kept you waiting.
Titania:
So you'll tell me?
Ike:
Yes. I think I've finally come to a point where I can face it.
- PoR Ch 27 "Titania"
And we only learn after the fact that it's been bothering him as much as it has. (The earlier snippet about sleeping past dawn.) This fact is another one he's hidden.
Ike
I've...had a lot on my mind. I meant to sleep last night, but I was up thinking. Before I knew it, it was morning.
Titania
Really? I never thought I'd hear that. Ike didn't sleep because he was thinking. I wonder if Soren will start being polite...
- PoR Ch 20 Pre-Chapter
(This is in context of Ike finding out about Greil going berserk, but I do think it demonstrates that Titania is unaware that Ike hasn't slept well.)
It's also established earlier, in the Ch 9 Soren base conversation, that Ike was not an early-morning riser before Greil's death.
Well, I mean, maybe you could argue that it's a personal decision. He's a guy who keeps to himself. Right? People are allowed to be introverts.
Unfortunately I can't really get behind that explanation, because he also tends to shove this mentality on others. Including his baby sister (not a manly man with manly expectations).
Ike
Did you drop it? Or put it somewhere and forget? Something like that?
Mist
No! I always carry it with me! I would never lose it! I had it before I went to bed last night... It vanished while I was sleeping! Sniff...waaaa...
Ike
Don't cry. It's not your fault.
Mist
But...but...
Ike
I said don't cry! I'll find it! All right?!
Mist
All...right... Sorry...
- PoR Ch 20 Pre-Chapter
It's not just something in the heat of the moment because of the medallion's theft, although I'm sure that didn't help his temper. After all, he reacts similarly when his best friend/clandestine lover is upset.
- RD 4-F-5 "Soren"
(The irony of Ike telling Soren he's emotionally ill-equipped in the English does not escape me. In any event, I actually think this scene is sweeter in this light. Despite chastising Soren for crying, he comforts Soren anyway. And I can think of no other instance where he volunteers an ear for someone's troubles or a shoulder to cry on. He's generally not that kind of guy.)
Ever since chapter 8, crying from any cause other than overwhelming appreciation apparently drives Ike crazy. I mean, he's even apparently more okay with dealing with things by getting super drunk. Not a single "Shinon, you've had too much to drink", even though that'd be a perfectly sensible remark to make right there.
What's up with that, Ike? He was much more relaxed about other people crying in chapter 8 and before -- and his remark to Rhys reads to me like he'd been capable of crying before that night. It seems like one respect in which his coming of age has, if anything, harmed him.
Okay, so, this post: Why Ike Is Not All That Boring, Part 1
His manly charms come with manly consequences.
So often stories like to present us with men who are both exemplary specimens of machismo and also emotionally well-equipped. In reality, things like not letting yourself cry tend to hamper the healing process.
Ike
...A long time ago, my father told me a story... It was about the dead... He said the more tears we shed...the more blessings they receive in the hereafter... I envy you, Rhys. For some reason, I can't seem to cry at all... Rhys, if you could, shed a tear for me, too. I'd be grateful.
- PoR Ch 8 "Rhys"
It's not super-overt. I don't think it was one of the designers' goals to make a point about the downside of masculinity. Honestly, I'm glad that isn't the case -- it probably would've come off as heavy-handed. Instead we get little things.
Repression or not, time helps, and by Chapter 9 both the siblings are coming to terms with things.
Ike, perhaps, is a little less certain and needs his sister's help with things.
Mist
If I said I were, I'd be lying. But I'm doing my best. Yesterday, I was so confused. Then, I awoke this morning and saw the blue sky, felt the sun on my face... And I thought, I'm alive. The sunlight was so warm. I mean, it's always warm, but...for some reason, it made me want to cry.
Ike
Oh, Mist...
Mist
It's up to us. We must live the fullest lives we can. We have to live for Mother and for Father. We mustn't dishonor their memory. So...um... I may think about them, and I may cry every now and then, but I'll carry on!
Ike
You're right... Everything you said is right. We will carry on together.
- PoR Ch 9 "Mist"
Even Soren seems to feel the need to comfort him.
Soren
Hmm.
Ike
What is it? You've got that worried look again.
Soren
Well, um... It's nothing. Nevermind. ...Everyone's really slow aren't they? Shall I go and see what's taking them?
Ike
Soren... Don't worry about it.
Soren
Hm?
Ike
Sitting here in the morning, in the sunlight... It helps me to understand. I'm alive. I have trustworthy friends. That's how I know I can go on. I just hope I'm not...fooling myself.
Soren
No, you're not! You're not.
Ike
Well then, it's business as usual. I know we'll have troubles, but let us set our shoulders straight and get on with it.
Soren
Understood.
- PoR Ch 9 "Soren"
If there's anything Ike seems less than certain about, it's this: moving past his grief. And there is no doubt in my mind that at the time of Chapter 9, he has not handled it as well as Mist.
We learn in Radiant Dawn that Mist might not have handled it as well as it looks, but while it's shown here and elsewhere that the death of her parents is a lingering wound, she's more actively working past it. She talks to people about it. She thinks about it from multiple angles. She talks to Ike about it.
Ike... Ike keeps it to himself. And secretly seeks revenge.
(The extent of this varies with the player's actions. If Ike fights the BK on chapters 11 and 24, these conversations appear:
Black Knight:
We meet again, son of Greil.
Ike:
...
Black Knight:
Why do you challenge me? You
are not worthy of being my foe.
Flee while you are able.
Ike:
You...
[angry sprite]
You! Die! Die now!
Aaaaaaaarrrr!
Black Knight:
...Fool.
- PoR Ch 11 Ike fights the BK
Ike:
I've found you at last.
Black Knight:
Hmph. You see me, and instead
of fleeing, you come to face me.
Interesting...and foolish.
Ike:
I will keep challenging you until I have
avenged my father!
- PoR Ch 24 Ike fights the BK)
Ike comes off as considerably more level-headed if the player doesn't let that happen, though. But either way, he's had it on his mind.
Ike: I brought [Ragnell] back with me, and I've been holding it ever since. I wasn't thinking about using it. I believed that if I just carried the sword with me, I'd meet the Black Knight again. And it worked.
- PoR Ch 26 "Titania"
Ike has avenged his father by defeating the Black Knight in single combat. That night, he sleeps until well past dawn. It is the first time since Greil's death that he has done so.
- PoR Ch 28 Pre-Chapter (if Ike won against the BK)
And, well, maybe it's understandable.
Mist:
You're going to fight him, aren't you.
For Father.
Ike:
Yes, I am. That's one I won't
let anyone else do in my stead.
Mist:
Trying to stop you is pointless. I know.
If I were stronger, if I were a swordfighter,
I'd be doing the same thing.
- PoR Ch 27 Pre-Chapter
Maybe it wouldn't come off as repressive as it is, if it weren't for the fact that, one, he doesn't even tell anyone about it.
Ike:
That would be the final piece of the puzzle.
After all, the man who found my father
was the king's henchman.
Titania:
Ike! Are you saying you know
who killed Commander Greil?
You never said anything about that! We all
thought his murderer was unknown...
Why didn't you say anything?
Ike:
...I don't know. I never felt like
talking about it.
Titania:
He was a Daein soldier, wasn't he?
Who was it? Who was the man who
killed Commander Greil?
Ike:
...
Titania:
IKE!! TELL ME!!
Soren:
Can we discuss this later?
Titania:
...
...Oh... Yes... Yes. Of course.
- PoR Ch 22 Post-Chapter
Not until 20 chapters after it's happened -- nearly a year in game time.
Ike:
I feel I've done you a terrible disservice by not telling you earlier. It's just that... There was a lot I had to get clear in my own mind. I know I've kept you waiting.
Titania:
So you'll tell me?
Ike:
Yes. I think I've finally come to a point where I can face it.
- PoR Ch 27 "Titania"
And we only learn after the fact that it's been bothering him as much as it has. (The earlier snippet about sleeping past dawn.) This fact is another one he's hidden.
Ike
I've...had a lot on my mind. I meant to sleep last night, but I was up thinking. Before I knew it, it was morning.
Titania
Really? I never thought I'd hear that. Ike didn't sleep because he was thinking. I wonder if Soren will start being polite...
- PoR Ch 20 Pre-Chapter
(This is in context of Ike finding out about Greil going berserk, but I do think it demonstrates that Titania is unaware that Ike hasn't slept well.)
It's also established earlier, in the Ch 9 Soren base conversation, that Ike was not an early-morning riser before Greil's death.
Well, I mean, maybe you could argue that it's a personal decision. He's a guy who keeps to himself. Right? People are allowed to be introverts.
Unfortunately I can't really get behind that explanation, because he also tends to shove this mentality on others. Including his baby sister (not a manly man with manly expectations).
Ike
Did you drop it? Or put it somewhere and forget? Something like that?
Mist
No! I always carry it with me! I would never lose it! I had it before I went to bed last night... It vanished while I was sleeping! Sniff...waaaa...
Ike
Don't cry. It's not your fault.
Mist
But...but...
Ike
I said don't cry! I'll find it! All right?!
Mist
All...right... Sorry...
- PoR Ch 20 Pre-Chapter
It's not just something in the heat of the moment because of the medallion's theft, although I'm sure that didn't help his temper. After all, he reacts similarly when his best friend
| Ike | Soren... Don't cry. | セネリオ、泣くな。 | Senerio, don't cry. |
| Soren | Don't cry? What? I'm not crying... | 泣く…？ 僕は……泣いて…？ | Cry...? I'm... crying...? |
| Ike | Soren, you're smart, but you're no good when it comes to your emotions. Come over here. | おまえ、頭がいいのに 普通のことが下手くそすぎだ。▼ ほら、来い。 | You, even though you're smart, are hopeless when it comes to normal things. Look, come here. |
| Soren | D-don't treat me like I'm a child! I'm not that-- | こ、子供扱いしないでください。 僕は……そんな…………▼ | P-Please don't treat me like a child. I... such a thing... |
| Ike | Come on. | いいから。 | Listen to me. |
| Soren | Shut up! Shut up... | ……… | ... |
| Ike | Then I'll come over to you. [Sprite reappears closer.] It's all in the past, Soren... | ったく、世話の焼ける。 [Sprite reappears closer.] ほら。 | --Sheesh, you're such a pain. [Sprite reappears closer.] There. [Lit: "Look." (in the interjection sense, eg, "Look, come here.")] |
- RD 4-F-5 "Soren"
(The irony of Ike telling Soren he's emotionally ill-equipped in the English does not escape me. In any event, I actually think this scene is sweeter in this light. Despite chastising Soren for crying, he comforts Soren anyway. And I can think of no other instance where he volunteers an ear for someone's troubles or a shoulder to cry on. He's generally not that kind of guy.)
Ever since chapter 8, crying from any cause other than overwhelming appreciation apparently drives Ike crazy. I mean, he's even apparently more okay with dealing with things by getting super drunk. Not a single "Shinon, you've had too much to drink", even though that'd be a perfectly sensible remark to make right there.
What's up with that, Ike? He was much more relaxed about other people crying in chapter 8 and before -- and his remark to Rhys reads to me like he'd been capable of crying before that night. It seems like one respect in which his coming of age has, if anything, harmed him.
no subject
/shot
Anyway, I think Ike's reaction to Greil is pretty interesting. I mean, there's also something to be said for his backstory with Sephiran, and how that might have affected him overall in terms of adjustment -- I think you touched on that once before, though.
I kind of wonder how his seeming obliviousness to certain things combines in with this, though. I mean, just in what you linked, he totally skips over Shinon's pwitty pwincess remark to cut in about the proper terminology for laguz. I mean, is that an instinct to defend others before himself (as the princess thing really seems to come with the implication that he's ready to ditch the mercs and climb through society)? Or just that he doesn't even get it?
no subject
no subject
Now I'm imagining Ammie making one of her comparison-chart things like she did for romance. Eph telling Eirika to cry in his stead, Ike telling Mist to stop crying, Eliwood breaking down in public...
no subject
I'd have to be interpretive on some level, though. Thinking through Micaiah, I can't think of any point at which some other character remarks that she's crying. But I can think of a lot of places where the way she was blinking, and the dots in the text, implied to me that she was crying.
no subject
Does Sigurd's game even bring up the subject of Sigurd crying or not crying?
no subject
I don't think so. But he sees Shanan crying after Diadora disappears, and all he asks is, "What happened?"
no subject
Sparkling Marth tears, though, wow. Seems like something you'd collect for nefarious purposes. Like unicorn blood.
. . .that's a little creepy to think about.
no subject
And the end of Chapter 17. FE11 hits that point hard and repeatedly.
Seems like something you'd collect for nefarious purposes. Like unicorn blood.
LOLOL.
Well, I'm certain we're supposed to assume it's Caeda comforting him, but since she could easily be dead by that point in the game, they leave the girl nameless, which means the player can just as easily assume it's one of Marth's
stalkersfangirls doing the comforting. Or collecting, as it may be...no subject
The Sephiran memory thing is something I'm not totally done thinking about yet, despite writing a last-minute fe_contest fic for it. It certainly must've been a very trying for him right after his mother's death, but in the long run... things like asking Mist about their mother's song makes him seem like a much squishier person in the early-game even so.
Actually I'm inclined to attribute that bit of obliviousness to romantic obliviousness. It's cliched but it works: he doesn't think Shinon made a remark that amounts to Ike getting close to her and staying in court, so he doesn't take it that way. Maybe. I think he doesn't get it. Or at least, not in the few seconds before his Laguz Rights stance kicks in and makes him stop thinking about it.
no subject
no subject
Whatever his relationship to the romantic implication, though, I think "and this means you will ditch the mercs and climb society" doesn't occur to him until Shinon spells it out. And when Shinon spells that out, Ike does react.
no subject
no subject
I find the sleep issues, going RAEG against the BK, and the complete lack of communication to Titania to all be very telling. Telling Mist not to cry seems more of a stereotypical boy/girl exchange; I wouldn't think anything of it without all this context as a framework for Ike Has Issues. Taken by itself, you could swap, say, Neimi and Colm into the dialogue without blinking. In the context you've presented, it does seem more significant.
Anyway, looking forward to Part II.
no subject
I do wish I had more examples for this claim, but people don't cry in front of Ike that often, alas. For what it's worth, Ike rather sharply tells Lehran to stop being sad and move on. It's a pretty unsympathetic no-nonsense dynamic.
Ike: Why did you save him?
Yune: Should I not have?
Ike: I can think of a few reasons why you shouldn't have, yes!
[Ike walks around to kneel at Sephiran's head, his sword pointing towards him]
Ike: Hey! Get up. Now.
[...]
Ike: If death is what you really want, then I'm not going to let it happen on
my watch. I don't care what you've gone through. I don't care how much
you've suffered. What you've done is unforgivable.
Yune: Stop it, Ike!
Sephiran: ...
Ike: Ashera is waiting. It's time for the final confrontation with her. You can
come... If you want to.
Sephiran: You... You're asking me to turn my back on goddess Ashera?
Ike: If you really want the total extinction of beorc and laguz alike, then you
can just lie here like a lump. If not, this is your last chance to start
rectifying your mistakes. Think hard on that.
Although as far as morality goes, I appreciate that the game balances out Yune's squish over Sephiran, because that guy did some pretty ugly things.
no subject
no subject
I do wish I had more examples for this claim, but people don't cry in front of Ike that often, alas.
Just cross-referenced the FE6 script, and in Chapter Eight, Our Boy Roy (TM) tells Lilina, "You don't have to hold back in front of me" after he breaks the news of Hector's death to her. Aww. But Kyusil would be the one to talk to about Roy's own emotional reactions...
no subject
Our Boy Roy (TM) tells Lilina, "You don't have to hold back in front of me" after he breaks the news of Hector's death to her.
That's a pretty noteworthy difference, yeah. That, too, is a boy-girl dynamic.