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How gay is Tellius? (Seriously.)
もちろんライにその気はない。 ~ "Of course, Ranulf isn't like that."
- FE 20th Anniversary Book on Kyza
At the time I wrote that post, I made a brief little jab about how this is a word of god against Ike/Ranulf, mostly because I thought I was being funny. What I didn't quite expect was that everyone who took an interest in Kyza was suddenly more interested in Ike/Soren being more canon, or more particularly, that Ike/Ranulf had been debunked.
Which. Well. I ship Ike/Soren madly, but in the interest of academic integrity, I feel the need to sit down and talk about this seriously now that I've managed to misinform half the internet.
First things first: I'm a pretty inexperienced translator. When I translated Kyza's artbook entry, it was the first time I'd seen その気, and Rikaichan without reservation told me that it was a euphemism for, well, gay. (Alternatively, "what someone has a mind to do", but in context this is very obviously the euphemism.) But mind you, I'm not sure what kind of gay this is, exactly.
"What kind of gay? Do they have different kinds of gay in Japan, like, half gay, full gay, gay on Saturdays?"
Honestly this isn't even a translation thing, this is just a people thing. Like, let's consider what different people might consider to be gay.
1) Sexual relations between two members of the same sex. When we're talking about dudes (and let's -- the way people view lesbianism is somewhat separate and I don't feel like getting into the details), this is the "It's not gay until balls touch" definition. Gay = Buttsex.
2) Gay identity. Which, performatively speaking, equates to "gay" behavior. This covers a wide range of things, and the list depends on who you ask. From the outside, you'd probably get things like crossdressing, frequenting gay clubs, lisping, taking care of your eyebrows. From the inside you're more likely to get a list like love of the arts, appreciation of the male physique... I don't feel like continuing this list because I'm not a gay man and I probably don't know this very well. And if you're a social scientist of some sort, you'd probably pick up on the more subliminal cues that people really use to decide how "gay" someone else is in five seconds or less -- gestures, use of pitch in speech, etc. So this is the "he acts really gay" definition.
3) Intimate emotional relationships between two members of the same sex. I hesitate to equate this with asexual gay romances, because our idea of what romantic should be is loaded in itself. But, romantic or not, I think we can recognize a level of closeness beyond what we normally call as friendship. Living together? Well, sometimes friends do that. I mean, what are roommates for? Joint bank accounts? Well, I mean, co-CEOs or something do that too. There are pragmatic reasons for that. Putting that someone on your will? Maybe your family's full of shrews. Refusing to accept that someone's dead until a maggot falls out of his nose? M-Maybe you're justOrson Ephraim a literary character and someone thought that was dramatic!
Okay but do we really have that many literary family-estranged roommate CEOs? I think most people would agree that involving someone in your life to that degree generally comes off as pretty couple-y behavior. Maybe they're not having sex. But they sure bicker like they're significant others.
Yes, people aside from slash lovers use this definition. Ever watch Brokeback Mountain? Remember Jack's anecdote about the two men who were lynched? The only thing they did was live together. That was enough for the community (Jack-who-is-gay-by-definition-1 included) to say, these guys were gay.
So, yes. This is "They basically act like a couple" gay. It's probably noteworthy that this is the kind of gay that you judge based off a relationship rather than a person alone.
I'm sure there are other ways that people mean gay when they say gay, but for my purposes here I think these three will suffice.
Getting back to the artbook, given the context I'm 90% sure that the creators meant that Ranulf isn't gay(2). They'd just gotten done calling Kyza an okama and talking about Kyza's ~okama crush~ on Ranulf. I'm pretty sure that what they mean here is, "Hell no Ranulf isn't one of those people."
I'm pretty sure this dismissal, along with Kyza's stereotyped portrayal, is indicative of the creators' own biases and othering of gay identity but that's a topic for some other essayby someone else preferably. The relevant part right now is that I don't think they're explicitly stating that Ranulf isn't gay(1) or gay(3) with someone else.
Given their stereotyping they probably lump in gay(2) with gay(1), but I think there's definitely a divide between gay(2) and gay(3). Now, personally, I don't think Ranulf is gay(3) with Ike (for reasons that I shall not go into here), but in the name of academic integrity I will defend this to the death: the creators have not decreed whether Ranulf is gay(3) for Ike.
In fact, if it makes a difference to you, I can easily imagine the creators saying something like, もちろんアイクにその気はない。 ~ "Of course, Ike isn't like that.", which doesn't change the fact that Soren can spot Ike's mood in five seconds from thirty paces, thinks Ike's life is more important than the fate of the world, and will literally weep on his shoulder. Not to mention devoting most of his childhood to seeking him out, cockblocking girls, wanting to be there for important personal moments, all that. Okay, but that's Soren. Well, Ike can also figure out Soren's mood pretty quickly, offers him the shoulder to weep on, and eventually takes Soren with him when he leaves the world behind. This includes his only blood family (his sister), his father's legacy (the Greil Mecenaries), and basically everything he's ever known, for those of you keeping track at home. Would you move to New Guinea to escape the paparazzi/go sightseeing for the rest of your life... with someone who's just your roommate and a good friend? Would your friend agree to that? This is a serious commitment we're talking about, okay. It's one that even Lyn and Florina's much-touted friendship didn't endure.
So, in short, Word of God has only stated that Ranulf is not gay(2), with certain implications that non-gag-characters are not gay(2). But they have not said anything about whether any given character is gay(3), and IMO the gay(3) is all over Tellius (and elsewhere).
- FE 20th Anniversary Book on Kyza
At the time I wrote that post, I made a brief little jab about how this is a word of god against Ike/Ranulf, mostly because I thought I was being funny. What I didn't quite expect was that everyone who took an interest in Kyza was suddenly more interested in Ike/Soren being more canon, or more particularly, that Ike/Ranulf had been debunked.
Which. Well. I ship Ike/Soren madly, but in the interest of academic integrity, I feel the need to sit down and talk about this seriously now that I've managed to misinform half the internet.
First things first: I'm a pretty inexperienced translator. When I translated Kyza's artbook entry, it was the first time I'd seen その気, and Rikaichan without reservation told me that it was a euphemism for, well, gay. (Alternatively, "what someone has a mind to do", but in context this is very obviously the euphemism.) But mind you, I'm not sure what kind of gay this is, exactly.
"What kind of gay? Do they have different kinds of gay in Japan, like, half gay, full gay, gay on Saturdays?"
Honestly this isn't even a translation thing, this is just a people thing. Like, let's consider what different people might consider to be gay.
1) Sexual relations between two members of the same sex. When we're talking about dudes (and let's -- the way people view lesbianism is somewhat separate and I don't feel like getting into the details), this is the "It's not gay until balls touch" definition. Gay = Buttsex.
2) Gay identity. Which, performatively speaking, equates to "gay" behavior. This covers a wide range of things, and the list depends on who you ask. From the outside, you'd probably get things like crossdressing, frequenting gay clubs, lisping, taking care of your eyebrows. From the inside you're more likely to get a list like love of the arts, appreciation of the male physique... I don't feel like continuing this list because I'm not a gay man and I probably don't know this very well. And if you're a social scientist of some sort, you'd probably pick up on the more subliminal cues that people really use to decide how "gay" someone else is in five seconds or less -- gestures, use of pitch in speech, etc. So this is the "he acts really gay" definition.
3) Intimate emotional relationships between two members of the same sex. I hesitate to equate this with asexual gay romances, because our idea of what romantic should be is loaded in itself. But, romantic or not, I think we can recognize a level of closeness beyond what we normally call as friendship. Living together? Well, sometimes friends do that. I mean, what are roommates for? Joint bank accounts? Well, I mean, co-CEOs or something do that too. There are pragmatic reasons for that. Putting that someone on your will? Maybe your family's full of shrews. Refusing to accept that someone's dead until a maggot falls out of his nose? M-Maybe you're just
Okay but do we really have that many literary family-estranged roommate CEOs? I think most people would agree that involving someone in your life to that degree generally comes off as pretty couple-y behavior. Maybe they're not having sex. But they sure bicker like they're significant others.
Yes, people aside from slash lovers use this definition. Ever watch Brokeback Mountain? Remember Jack's anecdote about the two men who were lynched? The only thing they did was live together. That was enough for the community (Jack-who-is-gay-by-definition-1 included) to say, these guys were gay.
So, yes. This is "They basically act like a couple" gay. It's probably noteworthy that this is the kind of gay that you judge based off a relationship rather than a person alone.
I'm sure there are other ways that people mean gay when they say gay, but for my purposes here I think these three will suffice.
Getting back to the artbook, given the context I'm 90% sure that the creators meant that Ranulf isn't gay(2). They'd just gotten done calling Kyza an okama and talking about Kyza's ~okama crush~ on Ranulf. I'm pretty sure that what they mean here is, "Hell no Ranulf isn't one of those people."
I'm pretty sure this dismissal, along with Kyza's stereotyped portrayal, is indicative of the creators' own biases and othering of gay identity but that's a topic for some other essay
Given their stereotyping they probably lump in gay(2) with gay(1), but I think there's definitely a divide between gay(2) and gay(3). Now, personally, I don't think Ranulf is gay(3) with Ike (for reasons that I shall not go into here), but in the name of academic integrity I will defend this to the death: the creators have not decreed whether Ranulf is gay(3) for Ike.
In fact, if it makes a difference to you, I can easily imagine the creators saying something like, もちろんアイクにその気はない。 ~ "Of course, Ike isn't like that.", which doesn't change the fact that Soren can spot Ike's mood in five seconds from thirty paces, thinks Ike's life is more important than the fate of the world, and will literally weep on his shoulder. Not to mention devoting most of his childhood to seeking him out, cockblocking girls, wanting to be there for important personal moments, all that. Okay, but that's Soren. Well, Ike can also figure out Soren's mood pretty quickly, offers him the shoulder to weep on, and eventually takes Soren with him when he leaves the world behind. This includes his only blood family (his sister), his father's legacy (the Greil Mecenaries), and basically everything he's ever known, for those of you keeping track at home. Would you move to New Guinea to escape the paparazzi/go sightseeing for the rest of your life... with someone who's just your roommate and a good friend? Would your friend agree to that? This is a serious commitment we're talking about, okay. It's one that even Lyn and Florina's much-touted friendship didn't endure.
So, in short, Word of God has only stated that Ranulf is not gay(2), with certain implications that non-gag-characters are not gay(2). But they have not said anything about whether any given character is gay(3), and IMO the gay(3) is all over Tellius (and elsewhere).
no subject
Fascinating post. And I had a good laugh over Enkidu.
IMO the gay(3) is all over Tellius (and elsewhere).
Where do you find the strongest indications for category (3) elsewhere in the series?
Flood me with the particulars; I'm interested.
no subject
I think Elincia and Lucia seem kind of gay(3) -- it's complicated by the fact that they have an existing bond that is usually referred to as familial. But then, "Their love was fabled to be stronger than even most blood sisters," and Elincia seems to have no issues marrying equally sibling-like Geoffrey. Also, this is Fire Emblem. As additional support, Lucia remains unmarried for life, even if she carries on some kind of thing-with-benefits with Bastian.
Actually, now that I think about it, I haven't given examples that much thought outside of the US-released games. But it may be in part because, for example, in Jugdral the relationships we see are so vaguely/quickly defined that it can be hard to decide between "drinking buddies" and "practically my significant other." (I mean, you can get people to make babies in Jugdral without getting them to so much as talk to each other.)
no subject
(I mean, you can get people to make babies in Jugdral without getting them to so much as talk to each other
Well, FE5 does have that eye-popping ending for Marty-- "The Man Dagda Loved." :)
no subject
Oh yes. That reminds me. All the campy berserker duos. Paul/Jasmine, Rose/whatshisface, Pain/Agony... I think there's one in Thracia too. Though they're rather gay(2) as well.
no subject
it's not canon, guys, they should have never made that sequel, I'm disregarding it
/shot
But yeah, I agree that Tellius really does have a lot of the 3 types. "Bromances", I guess (though there's no nice female equivalent. Have heard "les-BFs." Not a fan.) Probably more than I can think of in any other game, and I do think it's intentional rather than "slash goggles" dominating.
The difference between Ranulf and Soren's Ike interactions, though, is pretty interesting. I guess it kind of strikes me as a bit like. . . well, they have more interactions than 7's "less canon" pairs, but if Soren is Ninian to Ike's Eliwood, then Ranulf is something like Lyn. Something like that. I should really be in bed and might not make much sense at the moment.
(As for earlier comments about games not released here, I'll at least add for 6 that it is pretty hard to say, largely because of the scantness of a lot of interactions compared to later titles. But, bias aside, I think I'd be pretty okay with sticking what the game gives us of Percival and Mildain/Elphin/whatever into 3. Or at least, Percival toward Mildain.)
no subject
I was going to say that I'd try to recall other things in 6 in the morning, because I'm sure there's something and I can't quite remember it.
no subject
Acting like a couple is really only the most clear-cut form of (3). We accept calling opposite-sex pairs a ~couple~ way before they start to share a bank account, a will, etc., and quite frankly for a lot of the opposite-sex pairings that get a canonical end in the game, if I were to lop off the last part of the last exchange they have and the epilogue line, it'd look just as platonic as a lot of same-sex interactions.
Of course, the fact that they get an epilogue line does mean something for us, because we're talking about canon after all, but I think it's worth noting that the bias against gay(1/2) -- or perhaps just the "tee hee when a man and woman get together ~something special~ happens" effect -- both outside of and in-universe, probably demands more out of making a same-sex pairing happen. ... In other words, in a modern AU, Lyn/Florina is much more likely to happen.
So, if we allow Gay(3) By Analogy, the list is pretty damn long. Like, since Geoffrey/Elincia is a Thing (and other similar pairings like Levin/Fury), Percival/Mildain can also be a Thing. I think we can easily make a case for Tibarn/Reyson under this, too, although I sort of want to say that one's Gay Because It's Basically a Classic Pederast Setup. Which, I think that's maybe an interesting reason for my gut to spit out, and I think it shows that we should remember that the same behavior in different cultures is taken rather differently. (Gay or European?)
tl;dr yeah! I can see Ike/Ranulf being the Eliwood/Lyn option of Tellius. Noble savage and everything, man.
no subject
There's at least one solid bromance per universe, IMO, though it usually comes as Canon Couple + Other Dude Configuration.
Valencia:
Robin + Grey/Claire. If Robin dies, Gray drinks himself to death. Otherwise, they fight over Claire, who takes up with Gray while protesting she was really into Alm. Yeah.
Archanea: Jeorge + Astram/Midia. Mind you, it took four games featuring these clowns for the creators to flesh the relationship out, but apparently FE12 has all sorts of lulzy moments between them. Plus they all go off and fight crime together at the end of the wars... accompanied by Master Jeorge's adoring little apprentice.
And Castor.(I'd argue for Cecil, Rody, and Luke but I haven't seen their FE12 convos posted that I recall, so I don't know what direction this takes.)
Jugdral: Glade/Selphina + Finn jumps out immediately, in part because of Selphina's obvious pique that Finn is a lot more interested in seeing Glade than he is in appreciating Selphina's charms. Cue multi-line rant on her part.
But IMO the first hint of some deep and meaningful bro-thing going on was definitely Robin and Grey. Drinking yourself to death is a pretty strong indicator.